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MOOSE TAG LOTTERY
Moose Tag Lottery – Recommendations for Discussion
Purpose:
The subsequent report is a reflection of months of consultations across Northern Ontario to discuss possible improvements to the present Moose-Tag lottery system in
The random nature of the current system has resulted in a scenario in which some hunters are chosen annually, while others, through lack of fortune, are never chosen for a tag. Whilst hunters desire a system based upon equality of opportunity and fairness, they also expressed a strong will that any new system also ensure the safety and protection of the Moose population. Thus, the central challenge before us is to devise a system that both improves hunter access to tags, while at the same time ensures preservation of the herd.
Contents:
What follows is a series of recommendations from this consultation process. It is important to note that the suggestions in this report are merely put forward to stimulate discussion in pursuit of an improved system. The recommendations, then, are not to be taken as a whole, but rather as a series of individual proposals, which bear the fruit of the consultation process. It is our hope, that by carefully examining each of these recommendations, we may emerge from this process with a set of concrete proposals to bring to the Ministry. Thus, each idea should be judged on its individual merit, autonomous from the others, but perhaps, eventually, part of a policy framework that will help to improve the current system.
We put forward to you these recommendations in hope that you will examine each of these suggestions to help us chart the course towards a better public policy for the Moose hunt.
Recommendations:
1) Adequate and Improved Aerial Survey by the Ministry:
Hunters and experts alike expressed considerable concern that current aerial surveys are neither adequate nor fully accurate representations of the actual Moose populations in
This proposal would require the Ministry to complete more comprehensive aerial surveys to ensure the reliability of their projections. The logic is that a more accurate survey would reduce the probability of hypothetical Moose Tag allocations, and would help to preserve the Moose population at sustainable and accurate targets.
This recommendation recognizes that the revenues generated from hunting and fishing licenses are sufficient to provide for a more comprehensive aerial survey. As such, this proposal would seek to compel the Ministry to use these funds to better survey the hunt.
2) A Requirement that ALL hunters report their Kills:
This recommendation, like the previous one, reflects a renewed commitment to ensure the accuracy of the numbers, and thereby, the projections. Several hunters have noted that since not all kills are currently reported it is impossible for the Ministry to have a precise count on the actual population. The hope is that an enhanced aerial survey combined with a full report of kills will provide the Ministry with more precise numbers so that they may better protect the herd and allocate Moose Tags more equitably.
3) A Re-Drawing of Wildlife Management Boundaries to More Accurately Reflect Hunting Patterns and Moose Populations:
One concern is that the current WMUs are too large and, encompass such large geographical regions that it is difficult for the Ministry to properly allocate tags within these large WMUs. This proposal, then, recommends creating smaller WMUs so that the Ministry may more accurately allocate tags to hunters in specific areas. The current large WMU’s, force hunters to compete for tags within areas that they don’t traditionally hunt in, thus reducing the probability that they will receive a tag. As part of this recommendation, hunters have also stressed the importance of ensuring WMU boundaries reflect road access patterns.
4) Models for Improving Hunter Access to Tags:
The section that follows offers a series of recommendations and varying options for improving hunter access to Tags. Because the consultation process revealed hunter access to tags to be a central problem with the current policy, we have devoted a good deal of thought to this issue. It is our hope in this section to open for discussion different models for improving the system. This section will include recommendations on weighting the Tag system, dividing the season to include more hunters, and regimenting the type of Moose that can be shot in a given year.
5) The Quebec
The following recommendation highlights some of the essential features of the
To guarantee a healthy moose population, calves need to mature. The moose hunting seasons should follow the following cycle.
Year 1, hunters may only shoot Bulls.
Year 2, hunters may only shoot cows.
Year 3, hunters may shoot, bulls, cows or calves. But they are limited to only one of their choice. (example...a hunter shoots a calf and is now out for the season. He or she is not permitted to hunt anymore)
Adopting this system will have a definite impact on reducing poaching and unreported kills.
6) Shorter Season
Hunters suggest the season may be too long and that a shorter season, possibly four weeks, might be better. This will also help to protect the herd.
7) Enforcement:
Poachers and non-licensed hunters should be prosecuted to the extent of the law. Safety must always be adhered to in order to ensure that all citizens can use and enjoy the forests of northern
8) Splitting of the Current Moose Hunt Season into Two Parts:
The current Moose Hunt season is either six or eight weeks depending on the WMU to which a hunter belongs. This idea was brought forward by several hunters as a possible way to diversify access to Moose Tags. The suggestion is that by splitting the Moose Hunt into two separate parts, in which hunters could only participate in one or the other, could possibly greatly improve access to tags. Under this recommendation, the hunter would have to apply for either the first or the second half of the hunt. He or she would then go into a pool with other hunters who have applied for that particular half, and would not compete against those who have applied for the other. Many hunters would choose the first half due to the improved probability of success (weather etc.,).
That said, many hunters have suggested that it is difficult to get time off from work during the hunt and that such a system would allow them to better plan their holidays. In addition, if more hunters were to choose the first half of the season, those who chose the second half would have a higher probability of being chosen for a tag. It is important to note that splitting the season into two halves should not increase pressure on the moose population since under the current system many hunters who are not successful in the first few weeks continue to hunt until the season is over.
9) Once a Kill is Made, a Hunter Must Put Down His or Her Gun:
Under this recommendation, a group or an individual who makes a kill must immediately report that kill and put down his or her gun for the remainder of the hunting season. Forcing hunters who make a kill to put down their guns for the season would have the likely effect of helping to protect the Moose population, and would ensure fairness and equality for hunters.
10) Increasing the Proportion of Group Tags Relative to Individual Tags:
One of the most prevalent concerns brought up through consultation is the existence of ‘phantom hunters.’ Typically, these are people who apply for tags for the benefit of their family or friends, but have no intention to hunt themselves. The ‘phantom hunter’ does not use his or her tag, causing congestion in the Moose Tag Lottery. This is a significant problem for many hunters since it reduces the probability that actual hunters will receive a tag.
As a solution to this problem, experts and hunters alike have suggested increasing the number of group tags relative to individual tags. While the current numbers are roughly 50/50 this recommendation suggests changing that equation to something closer to 80/20. The hope is that this provision would provide hunters incentive to join groups rather than applying as individuals, and discourage ‘phantom hunters’ from applying entirely. By increasing the probability of being chosen as a member of a group this recommendation would also increase the likelihood that a larger number of hunters would receive tags in a given year.
11) Weighted System for the Individual Pool:
As another possible alternative to persuade hunters to apply for the group pool this recommendation suggests a weighted system based on seniority that makes it more likely that hunters who have not received a tag in recent years would receive one. Given that it would increase the likelihood of success for those who have not been chosen in recent years, this recommendation would likely compel recently chosen individual hunters to find groups. The weighted system would place hunters in different pools based upon the last time they have received a tag. For example, the Ministry might draw 25 names from the 13 year pool, 15 names from the 12 year pool, 12 names from the 11 year pool, and so on down to the most recently drawn names. This recommendation would also virtually ensure that those who have not been drawn in recent years would receive a tag within a year or two of its implementation.
12) Group Hunting Weighted System:
The recommendation for weighting the group system would look similar to the individual weighting system, whereby Tags would be allocated through a seniority system. The idea here is that it is possible to get more hunters Tags more often through a seniority system. It is our hope that such a proposal, if adopted, would ensure that no hunters who have applied for a group Tag would have to go more than two or three years without receiving one.
As an important provision, this recommendation would require groups to remain static to ensure that a hunter could not jump from group to group so that he or she may increase his or her probability of receiving a tag every year. There would, of course, have to be rules for transfer for extenuating circumstances.
13) Group Sizes:
If such a plan were adopted, the Ministry would need to set group sizes that were reflective of both the hunting population and tag allocations, all the while ensuring that the numbers are realistically manageable for hunting groups. Our consultation found that most hunters would support a group size of six. This number is manageable, but large enough that it will help to reduce the congestion in the Tag system if hunters opt for groups rather than the individual pool.
14) Archery:
Archery hunters are not included in long gun hunting season. They are to remain in their own season and follow existing archery regulations.
Summary:
Public consultations are typically an opportunity for people to express their sentiments about how public policy can be improved; our case was no different. There is clearly a consensus that the current system is not working as well as it could if the policy were changed. The consultations also revealed the deep passion hunters have for their sport, and the seriousness with which they view this problem. And yet despite their frustrations, our conversations with hunters demonstrated that hunters remain optimistic about the possibility for change. Our challenge, then, is to help to shape this change.
There are no right or wrong answers in this debate. We may all agree that the system is not working as it ought to, but there are many different angles from which we may tackle this issue. The above report has attempted to highlight some of these angles, all the while fleshing out their merits. At this stage of the process we felt it important to consolidate some of the recommendations hunters have brought to us, and open them up for scrutiny and discourse. It is our hope that this process will help us to better define some of the suggestions we have already heard, and perhaps even open up new avenues we have not yet conceived of.
A group of concerned citizens organized a meeting in Timmins and Iroquois Falls (clickhere) to discuss the moose tag lottery system. Gilles Bisson and Timmins-James Bay MP Charlie Angus listened to concerns from the well attended public meetings.
Comments
MOOSE TAGS..
Posted by: Jo-Anne, South Porcupine
My husband hasn't had a moose tag for the last 12 or 13 years now.. so I understand how others are feeling... I have a brother that it took almost 17 years of trying that he finally got a tag.. WHAT GIVES???
new system
Posted by: Bob, Timmins
My first idea is to boycott moose hunting altogether, can you imagine the ministry trying to figure some new system if all of northern Ontario's moose hunters would not buy moose tags for the year 2007. the millions of dollars in lost revenue might wake someone up and they would surely see that we are not satisfied with the present system. I myself have not been successful in the moose draw since 1994, twelve years now and i've been applying every year ( this the ministry can verify ). A few years ago I received a letter describing a system where a hunter not successful in the draw would get a star, if not picked for the following years the stars would accumalate until that person had five stars. After applying for five years, this person would be guaranteed a tag on the fifth year. If a group of five hunters joined together they could work it so that they have a tag every year, and this would be beneficial to the hunters and the ministry. I hunt every year with my wife, son and my friend and his wife, we have been hunting together since 1998. I guess what really pisses me off is when a ministry official goes in the Timmins Daily Press and says that every hunter in the north should get picked at least three times in a ten year period under the current draw system. I really hope Gilles and Angus can do something to change this ( I don't care or believe what anyone from the ministry says ) unfair draw system. If not mabe we should boycott hunting altogether, but plan it for 2008 it would give the ministry something to think about I'm sure it's not something that anyone wants, but if all the hunters stict together changes have to come.
Posted by: marc, ramore
My ideal was a rotation, and not a lottery. After you get a tag, you restart at the end the next year and you advence as the next tag holder fall behind you. On till your turn comes up again. Like when you go to tim hortons, you start at the back until it's your turn. No boby jump in front or in the middle.
moose
Posted by: roger, timmins
ps.mr.bisson,i think that a moose hunter with a tag the previous year, should be at the bottom of the list until the rest of us move up till we finaly get a tag.i for one know that some of them have a tag every 2 years, while the rest of us never got one for over 10 years.i really enjoy the out doors, and spent an undisclosed amount of money every year, but if this keeps up i will do like lots of other hunters i know and say the hell with them.ps. i know your main concern is hunting,but i think that fishing is starting to suck to. thank you for your time and concern,hoping your voice will be heard. concerned hunter roger chartier concerned hunter
Moose Tags
Posted by: Sean, Porcupine
Mr Bisson,
Having read your current options list I cannot say I support any of the options offered. Perhaps you should offer Option 4: Other, since what is there is still very inadequate. Option 1 offers nothing to those who hunt alone or in groups smaller than 4. Option 2 is quite obviously unacceptable and has been since the first year it was introduced. Option 3 still offers no guarantee that I would ever receive a tag, and it is far to vague. I would like top offer my own suggestion.
I suggest a points system. Hunters would accumulate a point for every year they apply. Every WMU would have a set requirement for the number of points needed to obtain a tag. Hunters could choose to accumulate their own points year after year or combine points with other hunters to obtain a group tag. When points are cashed in on a tag hunters would return to zero points. In areas where there are more hunters with the required points than moose tags available, there could be a random draw of the elegible applications and the numbers of points required could be increased for the following season.
A system like this allows the power of choice to be in the hands of the hunter where it should be and also allows the MNR to control harvest levels and hunter numbers in pressured areas. This would also mean there is no need to exclude 1 sex or the other on any given year, an applicant would simply require more of less points depending on their choice.
With this system a hunter would be assured of receiving a tag eventually, and they can control how often by where they choose to apply. Also, hunters should not lose their points should they choose not to apply one year. The current system of dropping out of the preferred pool if you don't apply one year is simply a licence to steal.
Thanks
moose
Posted by: fern, timmins
to me there can be two person for one moose
Posted by: rick, timmins
lottery should be changed to a points system. hunter with most points gets drawn first. that way if you get drawn, you should not get another tag until most other hunters get drawn. popular wmu\\\'s would require having more points to get drawn.
moose alternative..guarantee to hunt every 3rd year
Posted by: john, timmins
hunt every 3rd year...how?...every unit is divided into 3 large groups...how...alphebetical order? by A,b,c...hunter chooses.....so ,say A group hunts year 1,B year 2,C year 3.....if there are still too many hunters in each section,then divide by 4 to make groups of 4 per section.... this brings back the old 4 tags/moose/large section/ unit......this way familys can hunt together again or good friends......I have not worked out any numbers but this scenario could be workable i am sure.....if its not your year to hunt you are not able to carry a large game rifle..no calf tag either!!!....you are a small game hunter only!!!!!....this should reduce tension from hunters who are frustrated, thus reduce poaching ....thanks
Other Suggestions
Posted by: Bob, Porcupine
In option 3 no one should get their second tag until everyone has had at least one adult tag!
Another suggestion is a color code system, shorten the season to 3 weeks and allow people to hunt one or the other only , either cow or bull on a red tag good for 1 week. Blue tag for cow or bull week 2 and a green tag for cow or bull week 3. The same should apply as option 3 that no one get a second tag until everyone gets their first adult tag.
Thanks
Bob
Natives hunting in parks and preserves
Posted by: Some1, North Bay
Here in North Bay, there is a wildlife RESERVE, which the local natives have been using for their personal hunting farm.
Apparently this all started a long time ago when natives of some other community complained about their hunting rights, and were allowed to hunt in some park. Then this snowballed to other natives being allowed to hunt and trap in Algonquin Park.
Since then, they are now allowed to hunt the game reserve north of North Bay, and talking to one individual (with a Metis card) who goes with his native friend, they go at night with flashlights.
This game reserve has (had) a high concentration of moose, but it's quickly declining.
The natives that hunt(?) there quite often sell the meat, something like $1000.00/moose or more.
I realise I have no real concrete proof of all this, but when you talk to people who've been there and done that, not to mention the game wardens and others who are aware of what's going on, I thought I would post this to make others aware of what's going on.
I would hope something gets done about this, as the local natives are netting the fish right out of Lake Nippissing, and will soon move to other area lakes once this great pickerel lake is cleaned right out.
Northern Priority
Posted by: Aaron, Toronto
I don’t think it is acceptable that Northern Ontario hunters should have an advantage over Southern Ontario hunters when it comes to the moose draw. I grew up in Northern Ontario, I still spend a lot of time in Northern Ontario, but I happen to live in Southern Ontario. I pay the same taxes as somebody in Northern Ontario, and I should have the same rights of access to the fish and game resources of this province. If you want to correct the moose tag allocation system you should to start with the non-resident hunters who basically jump the line by purchasing a tag from an outfitter.
I like the suggestions about a points system instead of a lottery. With a points system you could at least plan your moose hunting from year to year based on your current accumulated points. As it is right you have no idea from year to year whether your will be hunting in the fall.
Posted by: Raymond, Timmins
I went approx. 15 years without a tag at which time I sold my two atv's and most of my big game equipment. Not only has our group of 4-6 hunters stopped hunting but it also means we haven't purchased any new equipment from our local retailers. Two of the group were from Windsor Ont.
Group hunting is fine but in WM-31 there is a large # of outfitters which comes into play on quota # 's i'm sure.
Note: to get a guaranteed tag in this area you would require some years from 7-12 hunters in one group. I did write one year to complain .No action taken, hense we quit hunting. Afair system I don't think so.To change areas or travel further north---- n. west I dont' think so.
Lottery / Rotation / Point System Combination
Posted by: Richard, Moonbeam
Whether we all agree on a change to a point system or a rotation, one thing is for sure, we all agree that the current system is suffering tremendously. As stated on the news, the MNR is blaming the tag lottery on the computer system that is currently being used to manage the distribution of the tags. (Wow! What kind of a dinosaur system is being used?) Regardless, I do not view this as a valid excuse.
Here are two suggestions to look at along with the ones already posted:
1- An increase in the number of pools. We need 4, 5, 6 pools, not 2. You start in Pool 6, and work your way up. Tags are distributed from Pool#1 downward. Choosing not to apply one year would not incur a lost in status, but not a promotion in pool either. Once you have reached the top pool, the system also takes into account your seniority. Seniority is determined by the year you first applied and skipping a year could also be factored in on tie breakers. (This approach combines both a rotation and a lottery system while ensuring that everybody gets their tags – lottery systems are for gamblers, not hunters.)
2- Because of many horror story people hear about group application like not being guaranteed a tag, many families and group hunters hope for a successful application by applying individually. The problem on such an approach is that those hunters will go 3, 4, or 5 years without a tag, and then get 3 tags amongst them in one year. Most groups would be more than happy with 1 tag a year. The system could also compensate for that. This might be asking a little much, but it would be nice to have the option of placing your tag back in a pool for other hunters that could use the tag more than you and your family and at the same time keep your status for next year.
No tag for me for about 8 years now and if I could get one every 4th year or so, I’d be in Moose heaven!
Good luck to all and thanks for taking this great initiative.
Salut!
Moose licencing.
Posted by: Lucien, Timmins
Due to to the fact that I hunt alone or with my wife. It would be nice to get a licence once in a while. I will be 60 years old this year. If I don't get a tag soon, I will say "to hell with your bad laws". The MNR are just a bunch of jealous yahoos, who don't care about moose or people. They close roads, take out bridges and they do everything to try and hinder the hunter. As for bears they don't care at all. All they care about is their cushy jobs that are too highly paid. They never listen to the hunter. They call meetings and they laugh at us.
Very soon the hunters will prevail. When there is bad laws they will be broken. I'm tired and frustrated of seeing moose and not being able to take one to feed my family. They say Canada is a country of freedom and equality. If my skin was red, I could hunt all year long with very little restrictions. Unhappy with the lottery, "YOU DAMN RIGHT I AM" Lou Roy
Moose and the NHL
Posted by: Mark, Ottawa
I have only been applying for five years now and no tag yet. I like the idea about gathering points but hunters may not appy with zero chance of drawing a tag in each year. I propose a weighted average system draw - similar to the NHL or NBA entry draft - where the longer your group has gone without a tag, the greater the chance of being selected. This provides increased probability of success, and it gives incentive for recently successful hunters to keep applying (the latter is good for the MNR\\\'s revenue stream).
A second concern, other than the obvious frustration all hunters face from years without a tag, is the lack of information and transparency from the ministry. It is difficult to discern what the current policy is with stars and pools and changing groups etc... For example, if half of your group lives in the south and half in the north, are you elligible for the northern tags? Difficult to tell from anything the ministry provides.
Maybe this will be my year, if not, I\\\'ll go back to working on my calf call.
Frustrating lottery system, not working for me.
Posted by: Laurent, Cobourg
Thanks for your initiative in changing the draw system.
I am formerly from Moonbeam and now reside in southern Ontario. Every single year, I've applied for a moose tag and my name was last drawn in 1995. Our group only hunts for a week but we average seeing 12 moose a year. We had to split up a calf last year between 8 guys (no luck with the lottery!), good enough for 15 pounds of meat each.
I would be more than satisfied if all you needed was 4 or 5 tags per moose, calf or adult. This would eliminate much of the improper moose gender killings that we keep hearing of and it would definitely be much better than the present system. Who cares about group hunting. As long as you have 4 or 5 tags when you proudly pull your trophy out of the woods, thats all that should matter. We don't eat moose once a week but it sure would be nice to enjoy hunting again. Lets not even talk about the money we (hunters) spend supporting this awful lottery system and getting to our hunting spot.
Posted by: shel, kap
personally i find the moose draw system is fine....those who havent yet received a tag in so long have probably missed a year or two...please vote...all votes count///it could make a difference//i do beleive though that they should give out more///
Moose Tag System ********
Posted by: Edward, Chelmsford
Mr. Bisson
For sure the system is not working. I have applied for the last 20yrs for
a moose license.....no luck,meanwhile in the same district where I hunt, the
neighbour got 3 tags in 5yrs. They call it luck of the draw. I do hope you will be able
to do something and change this no good system.....
Yours Truly,
Ed.
Let's get serious
Posted by: Jeff, Ottawa
In response to:
"personally i find the moose draw system is fine....those who havent yet received a tag in so long have probably missed a year or two...please vote...all votes count///it could make a difference//i do beleive though that they should give out more///"
Not sure if such a comment should be posted here. I know of many hunters that are applying and have been applying religiously every year for 10-15 years without getting a tag.
The problem that is raised here has nothing to do with "giving out more tags". They give tags according to the moose population and the allocation that can be permitted while sustaining a healthy population. The real problem is the lottery system.
People, let's get serious and gather facts prior to posting here. Let's also thank Mr. Bisson for this initiative and take advantage of this. Speak up, now is the time. Take the extra minute to sign the petition and vote.
Thanks
Posted by: Pierre, Hearst
Sure glad somebody is trying to do something about the moose draw that is not fair for everybody.Personally 4 tags for any moose should be plenty.That would stop all the killing by hunters that dont have the right tag and leave it to waste.
MOOSE SUB-COMMITTEE REPORT
Posted by: Richard, South Porcupine
TEMISKAMING ANGLER & HUNTER ASSOCIATION MOOSE SUB-COMMITTEE REPORT March 26th, 2006 ________________________________________________________________________ The current moose management system in place is through a selective harvest that regulates the distribution of adult moose tags in a given Wildlife Management Unit. This management plan has been in effect for over twenty years. Some TAHA members attended the original meetings held by MNR when the system was implemented. At that time there were great expectations that this system would significantly increase the herd, which would hopefully create improved hunting opportunities for the future. Unfortunately, this has not happened and it appears the opportunities for obtaining an adult tag are dwindling. The following is a compilation of concerns/issues with respect to the current lottery system. They represent the views of many hunters in general. The draw is seen as unfair, and it is unacceptable to the majority of hunters. The waiting periods between receiving a tag are too long for the average hunter. Some hunters have received a number of tags since the inception of the system while others have received none; The system currently encourages group applications in order to receive a guaranteed tag. Our major concern with this is that most residents of northern communities who hunt moose on average, cannot pool enough hunters to form a guaranteed group tag. The required numbers are too high for most. In fact, some have expressed they hunt alone or with much smaller groups. It is not uncommon to find groups of two, three and four in the smaller communities of Northern Ontario; Proxy applications made by persons who have no intention of hunting moose are not uncommon. They apply in order to help a group application meet the numbers. The following are suggestions, for your consideration, that could possibly help improve the existing tag allocation system: 1. That a preferred point or pool system be introduced in order to enhance the current lottery system. This would eliminate the possibility of a hunter receiving more than one tag before another hunter receives a tag. Additionally, this would eliminate the chance of a hunter going, in some cases twenty years, and not getting a tag. 2. An effective mandatory reporting system is introduced by the MNR in order to help with moose management. The TAHA suggests that all tags issued, whether used or not and including calf tags, are returned to the MNR at the end of the season. 3. Clear cut hunting is looked at to determine what impact, if any, it is having on the herd. This issue is contentious as some members believe that no additional restrictions be placed on crown land access. 4. WMU28 and WMU40, is divided into sub-units for better moose management and tag allocation. Currently these units are quite large and heavily hunted. 5. MNR review predators, s.a. wolves and bears. Some members feel that these are having a negative impact on calves. 6. MNR allow excess or unwanted tags to be returned without losing one’s pool position in the following year’s draw. To be specific, if two hunters get drawn for a tag each, one could return his tag for re-allocation and still remain in the preferred pool. 7. MNR, as an ethical measure, introduce legislation that requires all carcasses or parts thereof be covered during transportation. TAHA members understand, whether true or not, that the herd size in WMU 28 and 40 is at sustainable levels based on the existing habitat. Based on this, TAHA asks the MNR to provide clarification on the following questions: · Is the moose population at its desired level in WMU 28 & 40? · If so, why? How is this determined? · Are forestry clear cutting practices partly responsible for the lack of habitat? If the moose herd size cannot be significantly increased based on lack of sustainable habitat, we would like your opinions to the seven suggestions tabled above. Furthermore, we would like to hear any other suggestions, which would potentially help enhance the current system. TAHA also believes that if it is the intention of MNR to increase the moose herd size in all of the WMUs, a full review of the present moose management system might require some modifications. We would also ask that consideration be given to other provinces or states that have had success with increasing their moose population.
If you place your yearly moose license fee into cattle how many head could you have after 20 + years?
Posted by: Yvon, Iroquois Falls
Since the start our lottery program. That's right our (as in the people of Ontario) not the Ministry! The Ministry is an entity of our tax dollars that we assign to manage our resources. However, if they do not manage the way we want, we need to say stop.
We want this not that. We must unite and be firm, loud and clear. The system does not work it is not FAIR. Key word FAIR. I have never been successful in the lottery...NEVER. Have been hunting since before lottery can into play. Have purchased my license every year...NEVER got an adult tag. I'm conviced if the system doesn't change I will NEVER get one. Others are successful 2 out of five years. Fair? You get a tag then you go to the back of the line before you get another. Simple as that. EVERYONE has to get 1 tag before anyone gets two. Fair? My blood boils when I think I've paid for a license for 20+ years and never got a adult tag. This system is surely benefitting someone, not me but someone wants this system to remain status quo. Is it the hunter that has success in lottery 2 of 5 years or is it the Ministry, or is it the outfitters, merchants, who? Let's look for fairness for all and all will be benefitted. FAIR IS FAIR ALL I WANT IS FAIR!
poll
Posted by: lenoard, cobalt
this poll i believe is not well thought out from a management standpoint. the idea that you would give an adult tag to every 4 to 6 hunters as in option one is ridiculous.under the current system you need over 15 hunters for a group tag . so if every 5 hunters got a tag for an adult moose thats 3x the allowable harvest as it stands now.therefore the only option that is feasiable province wide is a point system.this system would still allow large groups to get a tag but more importantly it would allow smaller groups to know they would eventually get a tag. i believe knowing you would get a tag sooner or later is better than never getting a tag.I also believe that tag transfers should be eliminated a local biologist said that last year 1600 tag transfers were requested. this is totally out of line .Lastly poaching is a far bigger problem than most people realize( read a report by Charlie T odesco out of wawa mnr. i have brken down the # in his report and the lose of hunting opportunities is far to high.
NO MORE LOTTERY
Posted by: Andy, Timmins
While I agree that there has to be some type of limit on the moose harvest, the current lottery system is ridiculous. We have all hear of the horror stories of 10 -15 years without a moose validation tag. We do need some control over the moose harvesting numbers, however there is no justification for letting the "luck of the draw" determine who gets an adult tag or not.
every 3rd year?
Posted by: richard, timmins
I recall when lottery first introduced we were assured a tag at least every 3rd year.....It's been 14 years this year with no tag.....I personaly know of one person applying faithfuly for 20years and no tags...when mentioned to MNR the reply is that's not possible.
Change the system.....one tag for a group of 4 and after the harvest all four discontinue with hunting. Go for other game.
Posted by: Bob, Timmins
13 years now with no tag. If I was from Southern Ontario you can bet your bottom dollar that I would have had at least one perhaps two tags in the past 13 years. Mis-management of our resources has rsulted in a one sided tag draw that allows the same people year after year to be given a tag while others like myself have no chance at all. I hunt alone and for me to get a tag would be some kind of divine intervention.Why not guarantee Northern Moose hunters a tag every five years. At least then I would not have to shell out hard earned moneyevery year only to be told nope you didn't get one. Like a lot of others this fall I will be sorely tempted to take what I see and take my chances with the wildlife officers. But that shouldn't be too much of a problem their budget does not even give them enough gas to operate for more than four or five days a month.
"FAIR"What is that?
Posted by: nicole, timmins
Oh boy!, 10-12-15-17 years without a tag! I know how you feel. In 1985 I took the course for my gun license. Been applying since then. Lets do the math. 21 years of applying for an adult moose tag. Never got one yet. If I didn't know better, I say that it is discrimination, but, reading articles and talking with others I know I'm not the only one. Even though I am a female, and not all female are made to be "Betty Crocker" and stay home and bake, some of us do enjoy the sport of hunting and fishing. I really think that this lottery system is for the birds. I'm sure they could come up with a better system. WHEN AM I GOING TO GET MY TURN!
Another failed application
Posted by: Bob, Timmins
Another year, another failed application, how much longer is this going to go on. no tag since 1994. I'm really thinking of selling my guns and saying to hell with it all,( I'm sure the ministry would really like that ) mister Bisson and mister Angus, it,s nice that you have the website but how about letting us know whats happening with your inquiries into this idiotic ministry draw system?
Bob Ferguson
not pick again
Posted by: fernand, timmins
It Has Been 14 Years Without A tag. When Will It Change. I Spend My Money Just Like Down South And I Pay More For Gas. Change The System. Put It Like In Quebec. 2 Person For 1 Moose. 1 Year Shoot Bull Cow Calf ,The Year After Shoot Only Cow & Calf. And Too Top It All, They Could Get A Piece Of Land Or Buy It To Hunt. Built A Tree House To Stay In .A Tree House To Do anything They Want To Help Them To Get Comfortable To Hunt But WE Will Never Get That Here. My Son`s Are Thinking Of Getting Their Licence But If This Draw Don`t Change They Will Never Get Them
moose hunting
Posted by: dave, Iroquois Falls
Moose Hunting Option Four
Three Year trial period
1. Number of seals required to transport animal.
2. Bull- Five (5) valid seals must be attached to animal before removing from kill site.
3. Cow- Four (4) “ ‘’
4. No draw
5. Calf- Three (3) “ ‘’
6. Hunters need not be together at the time of the kill. Only to transport the animal so hunters can enjoy their sport the way they prefer. This will appeal to all sizes of hunting parties.
7. The number of seals required to legally cover the animal are subject to change depending on the population and sex ratios.
8. When a hunter’s seal is used the hunter is not allowed to carry a firearm for large game.
9. This scenario would eliminate dead game animals from being left in the bush do to mistaken identity.
10. Moose hunting season be shortened by one week at the end of the season in all districts.
11. Moose hunting licenses must be purchased before moose season actually opens which would eliminate people from buying a license after an animal is down.
12. Moose populations should be accessed every two years.
Posted by: Bill, Emsdale
I have not received an adult moose tag since the draw began. It is frustrating to see first year hunters getting bull tags ( not supposed to happen ) What really makes me mad is the outfitters receiving a number of tags to make money off while my gang of 14 hunters has not had a tag for 2 years now, we also own and pay taxes on over 2,000 acres of land. Outfitters bring there rich southern hunters on to the crown around us and they shoot all the moose, while not owning any land or paying any taxes. And the outfitters are supplying all the food, camps, fuel, ect. so there is no money going to the local stores, it all goes to the outfitter with the free tags. Stop giving all these tags away and there would be more tags to go around.I also think that harvesting to many calves is to hard on the herd. Out in B.C. the free tag is an inmature bull, you have to draw for the cow, calf, and mature bull.
Bullll
Posted by: AM, Timmins
Why is it that with 2 different ministrys like Health and Natuarl resources there are 2 different boundries for what is Northern Ontario. Travel to Sudbury from Timmins for a medical appointment and you get a app. 150.00 travel grant. Travel to Sudbury from Muskoka and you get total re-embursment of gas and accomadations (real fair). Now for walley fishing in 2003 - 2004, the real Northern Onatrio (North of Temagami) walley catches are resticted to 4 fish with a ridiculas slot size, but the other Northern Ontario like cottage country remained the same with 6 fish and no slot size. The Southern Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters have the highest number of members living in southern ontario not the real northern ontario. Dont look to them for help they will take care of there own by assuring that those persons who live a couple of hours north of Toronto have the same and better chances of getting a tag. We all have to stop thinking that people like Gilles Bison will come to our aid, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. There have been countless meetings with residents of Northern Ontario reguarding the tag system and NOT ONE has initiated change. You only have to look at the condition of our roads to see that Northern Ontario will never get a fair shake from Southern Ontario governments. Northern Ontario needs to be on its own, a separate province managing our own resources. We do not need suited bureucrats living in Toronto tell us how we should live. I was told by our local MNR office that they were waiting on Toronto to make a descision on making cottage lots available at Pharand lake that was about 5 years ago. They will not help us, this is not only about Moose tags. It is about fairness in everything we do up north. By the way did you see the price of gas in Toronto this week compared with Northern Ontario towns. Lets wake up, Get our heads out of the sand and stop waiting for Mother Toronto to take care of us.......
first they lie, then they steal
Posted by: marcel, timmins
i want to make this as short as possible ,everyone needs to know that the ministry has lied about the lottery system. comon now, 14 years, and you said every second year.
OOPS, my mistake, seems the mnr gave me and a couple friends some tags, myself in 95 and again 97. makes me pretty lucky hugh.specially since some of you never had any for what ??14-15-19-or not at all?????well i lied, yes i too can lie ,but at lest i will tell you what happened. the ministry has something called THE MOOSE LOTERRY AUDIT.
it is what it means. an audit. your right to request information on your past hunting records. all you need to know is available to you. but you must go to the office, i was told that once i put the word out, no calls would accepted, you have to go in person.
suufice to say they were nice to me, but i was unhappy knowing that after 14 years of no tag, they claim that i actually received a tag in both 1995 and 1997.well i wonder were they went, because they never made it to my house.so that means now they are thieves. no??? yes, they stole my money, and i\\\'m sure if i stole money ,i would be before the courts. they told me i probably forgot about my tags,yep forget em all the time, give em cash cause i got nothing better to do with it.yes ,that must be it. NOT...... what? they think were insane? well ladies and genleman, fellow hunters , this happened not only to me, but three more gyus i spoke with, since i spread the gossple.,so if i were you ,i would hurry down to the mnr office and do an audit. trust me ,, they know me, get them to know you.
please e-mail me
cowboy@nt.net,,and if you have questions send a e-mail
This is a province wide problem !
Posted by: Alain, Iroquois Falls
Hi co-hunters !!! YES THIS SYSTEM IS CORRUPTED !!! But I am also very sad to see that there is only 269 hunters at this time ( Oct. 1,2006 ) that signed Gille's on-line petition !?! How can we expect any changes with the coments of 269 hunters.
Mr. Bisson, this website is great but you are not reaching the majority of hunters. Many older hunters are computer illiterate and don't even own a computer. The meeting held in Iroquois Falls was excellent but we need more assembly to see where we stand and what direction we need to go for a better management system.
I also disagree with many previous post re: the fairness of tag distribution between Southern hunters v.s. Northern hunters. Where the hell are we going with this ? This is the time we should pull all rescources together and fight this lottery as ONE .
Mr. Bisson, Perhaps you could get the NDP, Nickel Belt area representative Shelley Martel to do the same for Sudbury and so on so fort.... I appreciate your devotion and courage but we need everyone in Ontario to voice their disagreement with this system.
Afterall, the Ontario Government will affect all Ontario hunters with new regulations. NOT only Northern hunters.
Face the real problem, then fix the tag sistem !
Posted by: Ray, Cochrane
To all my fellow law abiding hunter's, I have sat here and read all the comments and quite frankly am apawled. With the exeption of two brave souls who mentioned the REAL issue everyone seems to want to point the finger at someone else.( Pochers, bears, wolves, outfiters, logging industry, ) I finally drew a bull tag this year after 14 years of applying and never missed a year. This sistem is complete garbage, but what is worse is the fact that every year our fellow NATIVES are alowed to run in and shoot what they want when they want. How is anyone suposed to regulate a heard of moose when you don't even know how many are being taken. I personaly think that everyone should be on the same page as far as the law goes, if there is any hope for the futur of our moose heard. I'd love to see our system the same as Quebec, but until the native's are regulated there will be no solution to this endless problem. The argument is that it is a part of the heritage, and to provide for the family ? Let's get real, It costs $160.00 to fill my truck alone, this is a sport now, if you want to feed your family buy a beef it would be far cheeper. Oh and last time I checked there were no 300 magnums, nor 4 weelers, nor dodge hemies, in the history books iether.
If you could solve that problem Gilles you would be a hero to the majority of Ontario's population of honest hunter's.
Ray
Posted by: Denis, Iroquois falls
I've reading these post and I agree that something has to change for us and for the future of our next generation.
What's next with the moose and other big game hunting. A slot size like the fishing species. That a moose can't be longer than 60 inches in length and 60 inches high.???????????????
We also need to stop this FAC licence thing. I took a hunting course when I start to hunt approx 17 years ago, then grandfathered in for FAC. Then lost my FAC to this possesion card and had to take the same FAC course I took 17 yrs ago. How stupid is this and up with that! I mention this to MNR and nothing done as usual.
The gov. has to Stop spending time trying to make money on stupid things like this or we hunters will just give it all up. Put your time in asking dealers to send a registration copy to OPP to register firearms instead of charging the firearm holder a fee. Everything is a gimmic these days.
Posted by: Ti- Pit, moonbeam
Let's get real
just read in the paper about the guys in Iroquois Falls that want to adopt a system quasi like Quebec.
i agree guys it would be great hunting for 3 years then might as well hang up your gun because with the suggested system the moose herd would be whiped out.
the problem is that the season is too long and that 1 hunter can LEGALLY shoot as many moose as he wants if he is able to secure the tags. After you kill a moose you should be done with moose hunting, go hunt deer and birds or wathever turns your crank but stay away from moose
that way the success rate would fall and more tags could probably be given with a system that goes by SENIORITY never had a tag you are garanteed one next year go at the bottom of the list or whatever.
like someone said in a previous post the mnr have no idea of how many donkeys are killed every year by the indians, i asked a game warden once and he told me that the indians do not have to report how many they shoot a year so they don't know how many moose are shot per unit
i agree some major changes are needed to the system but we have to make sure to make it fair for every one and the indians should not be allowed to hunt at the same time as the hunters
they should be told to hunt with canoes and bows not with 338 mag and dodge 4x4 with jacklights
338 were not around in the 1700 when they signed the treaties
16 years without a tag and counting
It's to late
Posted by: Loved, Iroquois Falls
I have been hunting moose since I was 15years old and never had a tag (I applied every year on my birthday).My hunting party of 8 people is down to 2 .All the other hunters have quit.I went out openning weekend first day I saw 2cows ,the second day I saw 1bull and my hunting buddy saw 2 bulls. NO #&%$@# tag. Came home tuesday morning and put my gun for sale .No more waiting for tag.exactly what the MNR wanted ( NO tags , NO hunters, NO headaches and everybody gets to see moose on the side of the road or on the hood of there car!!!!(GOOD LUCK GILLES)
POACHING !!! I don't think so !!!
Posted by: Alain, Iroquois Falls
Oct. 13,2006
Mr. Bisson
It really gets me mad to see the MNR on MCTV news Timmins / Sudbury complained about the increased amount of moose poached since opening weekend this year.
They keep on showing the carcasses of dead moose they find in various WMU's on a weekly basis.
This is NOT poaching !!! If it was, the game wardens would not locate these dead moose left in the bush. Those moose were shot by mistake of identity and the hunters are too afraid to report it or pay the $ 300.00 + fine.
The lottery system sucks !!! Have 6 to 8 tags on an adult moose of any gender would eliminate those counter less mistake that we, honest hunters, witnesses once or twice in our life time. I am certain most hunters has seen at one time a 1" spiker bull out in the bush that looked like a cow !!! I also believe that it should be illegal to kill any cows with calves. We could also make it mandatory for a group to report the gender that was shot so that the amount of tags needed can be adjusted on a yearly basis to sustained a healthy moose population. Failure to report a kill should result in a stiff penalty for the owners of the applied tags.
Just an opinion...
Al
pistoff
Posted by: mitch, timmins
15 years no tag. put two person per moose and three week to hunt. i just heard that the indians went hunting in chapleau game preserve cause there was too many moose. they came out with 2 or 3 each. what about us. we could use that to feed our family too. and some of them were white people cause they live with a indian on the reserve so why cant we do that just like the metis. they are not indian and they shoot what they want. that realy pissed me off. they should have the same law as every body else. we got to feed are family too. if they want to shoot a moose stay on the reserve. we are not allowed so why are they allowed. i thought the world started with adam and eve not indian and eve so who gave them the right to control the land and every thing else we pay for them out of are tax money and we try to get one single tag we cant even get that
Still Bullllll
Posted by: AM, Timmins
Gilles what about the rest of the problems facing Northern Ontario, unemployment especially in lumber and paper.
High fuel cost compared to Southern Ontario. How are the Ontario fuel tax dollars being spent. If gas prices are an average of 20% higher up north that means we are charged more taxes on fuel bought. 30% of $0.85 is far less then 30%of $0.95. Get us a break on the fuel tax. We should be paying the same dollar amount as everyone else. Taxes could be adjusted for Northern Ontario to reflect the higher price per litre.
Where are the dollars being spent that are collected for the various licensing, fishing, hunting ETC. Moose tags are just the tip of the ice berg. Enough is enough. Northwestern Ontario separation is starting to rumble, from Thunder bay to the Manitoba border, and it is only a matter of time before Northeastern Ontario does the same. What does it take to make people listen.
By the way I sent the Mayor of Toronto an E-mail. He was on Television complaning of the Toronto Rat problem. I tried to explain to him that the rats and Torontonians should try and co-exist togerther in harmony. If Toronto folks took care of thier garbage and not put it out on the curb to early, if they did not leave out bird feeders, put away all pet foods, Toronto could begin to rat proof thier neighborhoods. The MNR has us on a Bear Wise program and they claim it is succesful why does Toronto not do the same thing with Rats, Rats also have a right to life. I can only imagine the poor defensless baby rats being orphand because the moma rat died by poison or got snagged in an inhumane trap. like bears they should not orphane the little ones. Lets send them our bear managment people as a sign of good will to help with that problem. I wonder if these folks have a lisence for trapping rats.
The rat problem sounds about as silly as the bear problem doesnt it. Moose tags, Bear seasons, fishing slot sizes, gas prices, fuel taxes charged, unemployment. These are just a few of the items that need attention.
You must adress all of them to begin to repair even one of them.
The current lottery clearly doen't work. Wake up!!!!
Posted by: Claude, Cochrane
Mr. Bisson,
I have been an avid moose hunter for a number of years now. I really think something has to be done with the existing moose draw lottery, not in the near future, but right now.
This year a great number of moose have been found poached and left in the bush to rot, it really bothers me to see that these act of unsportsmen like conducts are being practiced. This year the MNR has claimed it one of (if not) the worst year they have seen yet. I'm afraid it's only going to get worst, unless the goverment does something about it.
I vote that we copy off Quebec's moose hunting system. Every year they are allowed the bull and calf, what makes sense to me, because a bull can fertillize many cows. Every second year they're allowed the cow. There season for moose hunting only last two weeks,but that's the sacrifice that I am willing to make for more tags, even instead of putting two names per tag(like they do) let us put 3 to 4 names per adult tags. I am sure the total of adult moose harvested would not exceed numbers taken in the previous year(because of the shorter season). Why doesn't our gouverment try this system for a couple of years and find out?
Moose tag system
Posted by: Murray, Iroquois Falls
Hello : I hunt alone and believe this suggestion be given consideration . In Michigan they use a system for adult game tags. If you purchase an adult tag and do not win in the draw the next year when you buy a licence your name goes into the draw TWO times . If you do not get a tag the second year and you purchase an adult tag the next year your name goes in THREE times. Next 4 times and so on. If and when you get an adult tag you start over again . You should have a choice in Ontario to hunt adult moose and not calves . One thing about Michigan you do not pay for a licence unless you get a tag . Tax boys in Ontario wouldn't like that one EH ! It would be fair. I have not had a tag in purchasing a licence each year since 1995 thats $400.00 paid out. This system gives a more equal opportunity to every hunter to hunt an adult moose .
OUTFITTER TAGS
Posted by: DAN, R R # 3 FENELON FALLS ONT K0M1N0
I CHALLENGED DAVID RAMSAY\'S MINISTRY ON ALLOWING OUTFITTERS GETTING FREE TAGS AND BEING ALLOWED TO SELL THEM FOR A HUGE PROFIT. ONE OUTFITTER IN FOLEYET ADVERTISES MOOSE HUNTS FOR 4 HUNTERS WITH 2 BULL TAGS AND 2 COW TAGS FOR $ 3500/ HUNTER. ALSO ADDITIONAL BULL TAGS ARE AVAIABLE FOR $3700 PER PARTY. THIS IS A VERY GOOD PROFIT FOR AN OUTFITTER W WHOSE WINTER ADDRESS IS IN ARIZONA. RAMSEY\'S ONLY REPLY WAS THAT IF I HAD A PROBLEM I WAS TO DEAL WITH THE BANCROFT MNR. MY PROBLEM IS WITH THE OFFICE OF DAVID RAMSAY WITH THANKS DAN BOYES APORI
Impossibility
Posted by: Jack, Timmins
If you take your Hunting Regulation Summary for 2006 and go to page 50, you will find useful information. Let us take WMU 29 for example: 1666 1st choice applicants and 127 available adult tags, divided you get 13. Thus, if moose and hunter numbers remain the same you would expect to get a tag every 13 years.
Another example WMU 18A has 161 1st choice applicants and 57 available adult tags, divided you get 2.8. Thus if moose and hunter numbers remain the same you would expect to get a tag every 3 years or so.
I would assume that the folk who live within or travel to WMU 18A to hunt adult moose have little to complain about and those of us who live in larger less remote centers have less of an opportunity to obtain an adult tag.
So unless we can miraculously increase the number of moose in WMU 29 from about 1300 animals to 17,000 (estimated on 10% of moose population is allocated) and assume the habitat can support that many moose, we will likely never find a perfect system were individuals can hunt adult moose every year.
My suggestion, play the odds in other WMU's were the ratio of available adult moose tags is higher than 1st choice applicants and you likely be successful. Not the best suggestion for everyone however, for those of us that are so desperate to obtain a moose tag every year this would bring us one step closer to achieving this goal.
Keeping a healthy moose population is the most important issue at hand so that our children and grandchildren can chose to exercise their privilege to hunt if and when they are ready.
tag got/tag gone
Posted by: Doug, Haley station
After countless years of applying, got a bull tag couple yrs ago. Called a bull right in the night before. Thought oh boy what luck. Later that evening had locals (we wont say of which genetic background) shoot birdshot at my camp ,some of which hit me. Fill mud puddles full of brown paint so my truck and four wheeler got a free paint job,etc,etc. Eventually had to leave. Reported it all. Told it was typical and got dismissed. I dont know, do I wait 18 more yrs or have W5 do a story on it?
Don't Quit
Posted by: Glen, Northbay
I have read a lot of the responses and have a concern about the amount of people giving up what they love because of government mismanagement. If you quit hunting and fishing we play into the MNR and Gov game plan by staying out of the bush. The bush is a lot easier to manage with no one in it. Smaller groups have a smaller chance of making change. What we have to do is stick together and fight the bureaucracy. I believe there are way less people enjoying the sport of moose hunting and I believe there are more Moose now than ever. I have been hunting for approx 35 years, my father hunted, my grandfather hunted, and I am pretty damn sure all the fathers before him up to the point my ancestors got off the boat on this continent have hunted. Where have my historical rights gone. I have seen the MNR go from a Ministry which helped and cared for the people of Ontario to a Ministry who's sole purpose seems to stop us from pursuing our passion for the outdoors and keep us out of the bush. If you are approached by an MNR employee while in the bush you are automatically guilty of something, its your job to prove your not. No just cause for pulling you over or searching vehicle's, more power than the RCMP?
If the MNR and Gov think that yuppys are going to save all the businesses and jobs lost to the changes in not only moose hunting, but fishing regulations, bear hunt, forest access etc they are sadly mistaken.
(In McConnel Lake area, east of North Bay, by Quebec border, the gov has given a private individual the right to charge to camp on crown land? Its only a matter of time before it comes to your area) I can't say which option I am happy with all I know is the current system is not working. Voice your opinion, sign the petitions, call your MP get involved.
Thanks for the space.
Ditto for a weighted point system...
Posted by: Alain, Val-Cote
I don't hunt and I fish once in a while after the freezing spring rains and before the blackfly 'free-for-all'. But all the same. I hear friends and neigbors complain every year around the time of the moose tag lottery. First, let me say that it is a crying shame that resident hunters have to line-up and hope to get lucky in this very iffy lottery, but what really gets my knickers in a knot is that we will forever fall second to the rich America tourists who can almost be assurer of a prime kill every time if the price is right. So we must first start to conserve the highest ratio of tags for ourselves...what happens now is that we 'con' the resident hunters and 'serve' the tourist industry, often at the expense of the local/regional service industry. When is the last time you've seen hunters from outside buy gas or grubs from the locals; they bring in most of their supplies with them.The best solution all around is to reserve enough tags to satisfy the greater portion of the locals and then to implement a gradual point system where appicants would be awarded some points every time they buy in, giving them more chances to win a tag with the more points they accumulate and a return to zero once they finally are successful. Tighter controls on moose population, hunting laws and stiffer fines for habitual poachers are also sorely lacking.Now someone please help me down from my soap box...
Good Points
Posted by: Roger, Timmins
There were a lot of good points made regarding or hunting, fishing, forestry etc...
I to haven't been lucky with the draw system for more then 24 years and the run in I had with the M.N.R. was not the best....they were very rude, insulting and not very clean (the way they ripped our garbage then played with our fish, rummaged through our stuff and we were left with the mess...thx)
Like someone said....there working for us, to work with us and some where down the road we got burned..time to change....if they are so worried about there jobs, maybe they should listen to us outdoors men and work with the info...not the tree huggers.
There are so many thing that the north (north bay & north of that) pays for and the south gets at a lower price and they dip there fingers in our grant moneys for the north by moving the boundaries to there liking and have the nerves to say that they need help...call in the army...they need a lot of help...maybe we should turn the tables and telling them what to do and start charging more for the northern riches.
And all these fees we pay for POL & POL, hunting course, licenses and so on..why and were does the money goes....its all over price and the info the i received in regards to the POL and the PAL....its all a ripe off ( coats me 240.00 $ for my daughter and 140.00$ for me because of the GREAT info i got for changing my POL to PAL)
Basically...I want my home back...THE GREAT WHITE NORTH with the beautiful hunting, fishing and all other great sport that didn't coats us anything but good family & friends fun times.